There exists two hybrid groups that are probably more deadly than either non-hybrid group they are based on. Pirate Ninjas and Ninja Pirates. One is a group of ninjas who are like pirates in that they have no morals, they drink and swear, and they might have eyepatches and/or peglegs. The other is a group of pirates who are like ninjas in that they are very stealthy and cunning, wear lots of black, and are generally similar to Wesley in The Princess Bride. (He is very clearly a pirate, even though he dresses in black and is stealthy.) So the question is, which is which?
This is a very controversial issue, and I expect there to be some disagreement on it, but here's how I see it. In either phrase, the second word is a noun and the first word is an adjective. When I say "ninja pirate", I am referring to a pirate who shares characteristics with ninjas, like Wesley. "Ninja" is the type of pirate he is.
"What kind of pirate is he?" "Oh, he's a ninja pirate."
Thus, "pirate ninja" would be a ninja who has gone all piratical. He loses his morals and starts to drink, swear, conduct raids, etc.
"Oh, he's a ninja?" "Yes, and the most dangerous kind, too. A pirate ninja."
There is a comic called "Brick House" that features an ongoing story line that invovles both pirate ninjas and ninja pirates. But I think the comician is using the terms in the opposite way that I would. "Ninja pirates have all the stealth and power of the ninja, but with none of the ethical holdbacks or concerns about honor. In those areas they are as bloodthirsty as any pirate." (http://www.reasonablyclever.com/bh/83.html) So he is considering a ninja who takes on piratical ways to be a ninja pirate, whereas I would consider that ninja to be a pirate ninja.
What do you think? Which one is which? Please comment with your opinion, and please include your reasoning! Once we settle on terminology, we can begin debating which one would win in a fight, but that's a topic for a separate post.
18 comments:
I take the opposite approach. Consider:
There are many kinds of pirates. There are pirate captains, pirate swordsmen, pirate pistoliers, pirate berserkers, pirate cannoneers, and apparently pirate ninjas. A pirate ninja is thus a type of pirate.
Conversely, a ninja pirate would be a type of ninja, as opposed to a ninja spy, ninja assassin, ninja saboteur, etc.
I think maybe the difference between our approaches lies in considering the ninja pirate/pirate ninja as either a part of a mixed group (there's a group of pirates, and one of them is a pirate ninja) or as the designation for the entire group (there's a bunch of ninjas who act like pirates coming your way, so beware the pirate ninjas.)
I don't know if that makes any sense at all, but this topic is nutty to begin with so I think that's okay. :D
Lord Admiral: I know we discussed this over IM, but I'm glad you commented so we can get this all out in the open. ;)
I still stand by my original interpretation. I could imagine asking "What kind of ninja is he?" and receiving the answer "He's a ninja spy", and that making more sense than "He's a spy ninja." But I would consider "spy" to be a designation of the "ninja" group. I wouldn't consider "pirate" to be a designation of "ninja" or vice versa; I would consider ninja pirates and pirate ninjas to be entirely separate groups from ninjas and pirates. Related, yes, but not the same.
So I guess I would consider ninja pirate / pirate ninja to be the designation for the entire group, rather than part of a mixed group. A ninja pirate is above and beyond a regular pirate (who might be a captain, pistolier, or swordsman).
i'm with Kyle. saying "ninja pirate" is the same syntax as "awesome pirate". hell, it almost means exactly the same thing! but i'd say the first word would be the description, rather than the base state of said pirate/ninja.
I think you also have to consider that you can't use the word 'pirate' as an adjective, the proper word being 'piratical.'
Personally, I think the words are interchangeable. Ninjas and pirates meet in the middle, kind of like half-elves are neither elf nor human, but the midpoint of both. HA! A third opinion you didn't even consider.
Half ninja. Half pirate. All badass.
bluefish: I agree that "piratical" is a more proper adjective than "pirate", but nouns are frequently used as adjectives. Pirate radio station, computer desk, etc.
I don't agree that the terms are interchangeable, though. I think there are some creatures out there that are equally pirate and ninja, but I think that's rare and genetic (like half-elves). They probably deserve a term of their own. I would propose either pirja or ninrate, since calling them either half-ninjas or half-pirates seems racist. But there are also some that are clearly more one than the other, or are one at heart. I think what generally happens is a pirate studies the ways of the ninja, or a ninja studies the ways of a pirate. In either case, they might reach the middle of the spectrum in terms of powers and abilities, but they would still be one or the other, either a pirate ninja or a ninja pirate.
Of course, some might say that pirates and ninjas, like werewolves and vampires in the Underworld movies, are enemies even at the genetic level, and a forbidden union between pirate and ninja, were it ever to bear fruit, would doubtless spell the end for both noble races!
I don't know if I would consider a pirate ninja or a ninja pirate necessarily someone who studies the other group's ways. I would be more inclined to think that they would be a member of one group who naturally tends toward the mannerisms and methods of the other group.
For instance, while most ninjas are very precise and tidy, there's got to be some variation in that level of precision and tidiness. It stands to reason, therefore, that there would be some ninja outliers who are scruffy and brawling. If these ninjas also like drink and seafaring--as I'm sure some would--they could be considered ninja pirates (or, in your terminology, pirate ninjas).
Similarly, I would consider the little Spanish-looking dude in this movie to be a pirate ninja (in Kage terminology, a ninja pirate), but I wouldn't assume that he necessarily got his skills from ninjas:
http://www.pyrats.net/watch-movie.html
I think they do have to specifically train to be a pirate ninja or a ninja pirate. I think there are definitely outliers in the "pirate" group who are more stealthy than most, and outliers in the "ninja" group that are more brawl-y than most, but I think they are still definitively pirates or ninjas. I think pirate ninjas and ninja pirates are separate and distinct groups from pirates and ninjas; they are above and beyond simple pirates or simple ninjas (who may or may not have members that tend somewhat towards the other group). I don't think one can become a pirate ninja or a ninja pirate on the basis of sheer inclination; I think it does require special training. (A pirate wouldn't necessarily have to go train with ninjas to become a ninja pirate, but he would at least have to study the ways of the ninja, or train with a group of already-existing ninja pirates.)
I'm trying to think of another good analogy, but nothing's occurring to me. If I think of one later, I'll post it.
I think you're approaching this from the perspective of a pirate, whereas I'm approaching it from a more ninja perspective. I may concede that pirates can't become ninjas by inclination, and even the knife-throwing dude in the Pyrats video isn't really a pirate ninja (or ninja pirate), but I imagine a ninja could easily become a ninja pirate (or pirate ninja) simply by sailing the seas, drinking, and neglecting personal hygiene. It takes special training to be a ninja, but anyone can be a pirate. (Which is another reason why ninjas are cooler, but that's a separate debate.)
Hmm, I still have to disagree. The ninja you describe, the ninja who just goes out and sails the seas, drinks, and neglects personal hygiene, I would just consider to be a slobby, pirate-like ninja. But in order to truly be a true pirate ninja (since it's my blog, I'm just going to continue to use my terminology ;) ), that requires a fundamental shift in values and morals, and that's something that comes about in training. The slobby, pirate-like ninja would be inferior to the regular ninja, whereas the actual pirate ninja would be superior to the regular ninja.
That's the difference between a pirate-like ninja and a true pirate ninja.
(Sorry for the double-post; I don't see an Edit Comment button anywhere.)
I'm with Kyle on the word order.
Lord Admiral's examples in his first post are job descriptions: a pirate captain's duty is "captain," a ninja assassin's duty is "assassin," etc. The job-description words are capable of standing on their own... When talking about the ninja assassin, it's perfectly accurate to just say "he's an assassin." Thus, it's okay to have "assassin" take the place of the true noun in the sentence; "ninja" is really serving as the adjective.
But, suppose you're talking about a ninja who has some strong pirate-like qualities. "Pirate" isn't his duty; he doesn't make his living by robbing ships at sea. It's not accurate to say, "He's a pirate." Therefore, "pirate" is not a noun the way "assassin" and "spy" are, so it has to be placed in the adjective spot, before the noun.
There's another possible combination, in addition to the ninja with pirate qualities, the pirate with ninja qualities, and Bluefish's midpoint between pirate and ninja... What would you call someone who is FULLY skilled as BOTH a ninja and a pirate? The most obvious term would be ninja/pirate or pirate/ninja (in the same way that something that functions as both a scanner and a copier is usually sold as a scanner/copier). But ninja/pirate sounds rather too much like an, er, interesting genre of fanfiction...
http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0319.html
They refer to Wesley as a pirate ninja, which seems to support Lord Admiral's argument and refute Kyle's.
Also, ninja/pirate fanfiction would probably look a lot like this: http://www.spike.com/video/ninjas-vs-pirates/2687514
Bluefish, I take it you haven't run across the concept of "slash fanfiction"... You're either blessed or deprived, I'm not quite sure which.
Oh, I've run across the concept. We ran across one another in a back alley. I thought it was just trying to be friendly. But then I saw the knife. I can still feel the sting when the weather turns...
And I never saw Star Trek the same way again.
So when are we going to hear about whether pirate ninjas are better than ninja pirates?
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